SPEAKER_02 0:15

Welcome back, everyone, to another episode of the detox experience. I am joined today by Dr. Mandy Dell of drmandydcn.com. And welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_00 0:25

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 0:25

Glad to have you. Yeah, we've uh we've been we've been friends and colleagues for I it's probably been about 10 years. I feel like it's been about 10 years because you are you're one of probably the first practitioners to start using my first nutritional supplement brand, Glycolith Sciences. And you know, there's been there's been a huge uh you know progression over the years of of of the line and you know all the stuff I've been recommending. So anyway, yeah, we've we've been we've talked a lot over the years. I've been on your podcast a few times. Um yeah, so this is this is great. So great to have you. Thank you. And you know, we haven't talked really about urinary tract uh urinary health.

SPEAKER_01 1:03

No, I don't think we have. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:04

Yeah, yeah, and we definitely haven't on this pod on my podcast. So it's this is gonna be good for for the listeners to kind of because that's kind of your wheelhouse, right? Yes, you know, interstitial societies, you had you know, I see healer, you've got you know a lot of certifications. You've done, you know, some additional training, like the DCN certification since we uh, you know, since we first met. So yeah, lots, lots of stuff. So why don't you just you know spend a couple minutes telling people about yourself, kind of your journey into this, and um yeah, and then we'll just then we'll take it from there.

SPEAKER_01 1:31

Yeah, so um long story short, this is a career change for me. I uh prior to this, I was a packaging engineer and I did that for five years. And then I was a mom for a good 10 and a fitness instructor, and I got into a little fitness nutrition as a state hall mom. And then I went back to school to become a teacher. So I did a little bit of science teacher education, um, got my master's in biology and became a college professor teaching biology. I still do that, by the way, on the side as an adjunct professor. I teach biology and biochemistry. Um, but when I was really interested in going further, was when I started having bladder symptoms of my own, because prior to all this, my focus was on weight loss and nutrition, and that's really all I focused on. But then when my bladder symptoms started, right around 2009, um, is when I mean, obviously that became my primary focus was to figure out what the heck is wrong with me. And the doctors weren't giving me any answers. Uh, they were just wanted to medicate, give me medications, and that was all they had medications and surgery. So it came upon my um, I had the opportunity to go further in my education and I got a doctorate degree in that's what DCN is, doctor of clinical nutrition, so it's a it's a it's a doctorate in clinical nutrition. So I had to go three years back to school after my master's degree. Um and that really I had to open my eyes to functional medicine because that's primarily what we learned there. Um, you know, very similar training to naturopath, um, a little more heavily focused on nutrition, though, um, and than naturopath training would be. But that was really when I started realizing that there's more to this problem than just what the doctors are saying. Um, so that's kind of how I got into that. Um, and people needed my help. And so as I was working through my own bladder issues, and that's kind of where Jeff came in to play a role in my life as well, um, because he introduced me to some things that also helped me heal. And then I just decided that this was my calling. And so I started to help other people with their bladder pain. I still do this. Uh, this is kind of my primary business. I did add an arm to fertility as well, because I did have a baby just 20 months ago, 21 months, he's almost 21 months. Um, so I went through IVF and I have a whole lot of experience with that too. And there's a lot that you need to do with your health in order to prepare your body for pregnancy, whether it's natural pregnancy or in vitro. And so I decided to start helping people with fertility. Interestingly, my IC patients who were working with me were getting pregnant while they were working with me. And so I started realizing, okay, I'm also improving their fertility with improving their bladder health. And so, what with my own experience getting pregnant and I had a very uneventful pregnancy, very healthy. I was in my 40s. My doctors were shocked. They were like, oh my gosh, you're like one of our healthiest 40-something-year-old patients. Um, but there was no surprise because of my background. Um, so I just thought that would be something else I can also be doing. So I don't have a lot of fertility patients right now, but I have a few and something I want to grow as well. So yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:19

Well, definitely, you definitely have a lot of knowledge on a lot of subjects. So, yeah, fertility, if anyone's interested. And I will throw you know all your information out at the end, but for you know, fertility, you know, especially, you know, like you mentioned the IGF and you know, later or IVF or IVF, IVF, yes, I have IVF, NVR fertilization. Yeah, yeah. And then and then the interstitial cystitis, which you've really been doing for a long time, right? The IC stuff based on your own health journey. Yeah, and then I know you had, you know, it's just yeah, you had a lot of people you were helping with that. So that's a tricky one. Why don't you just tell people for people that don't know what is IC? What is interstitial cystitis?

SPEAKER_01 4:49

It's when you have chronic bladder pain that's idiopathic, according to the medical literature. So there's no known cause from what they believe. Um, it's uh it has a combination of symptoms. Um, usually it's chronic. So it's if you have chronic pain, uh, urgency, frequency, pelvic pain, um, sometimes accompanied by UTIs, but not always. They're not always traditional cultured UTIs with this condition, but many patients do. And if it's been going on for a while, so if you've had it for like six months or longer, then they usually slap on this diagnosis called interstysal cystitis, it's just bladder pain syndrome. So there's two different um definitions or uh sorry, um, names that they use. They use IC and also I've seen bladder pain syndrome as well. It's just pain in the bladder or urethral pain that is really doesn't have a known cause.

SPEAKER_02 5:37

Yeah. And is is it can is it classified as an autoimmune condition?

SPEAKER_01 5:41

Not necessarily in the literature, although it has a lot of the same characteristics.

SPEAKER_02 5:45

Okay. Okay. So maybe it might be autoimmune related, it might not be. Maybe it depends on one of the root causes. So let's let's talk. Well, let's just get right into that. What what um let's just talk a little bit about that? What have you seen to be effective? Kind of what is your general approach like with IC? Like, what have you, you know, done for yourself? And then what have you found? Uh like what is kind of the process of someone wanted to work with you? Like, is there testing involved? Is there a lot of supplements? Is it mindset, emotions, diet, like everything?

SPEAKER_01 6:10

All of it. This is what makes it so complicated, is it's not just one cause. And if you follow me on Instagram and TikTok, I talk about this a lot because a lot of people are still looking for that. Um, smoking gun. And there's no smoking gun with this. It's a bunch of different things, and everyone's a little bit different, but there are some commonalities that I have found over the years. When I first started, I was really interested in oxalates that seemed to be a big one for a lot of my patients, including myself. And I think when I started doing organic acid testing and the nutrition eval test, I started seeing a good percentage, not all of them, urinary oxalates were often elevated. Um, and a lot of the symptoms uh resemble someone who would have elevated oxalates passing through the urinary tract. So back in those days, that's really what I focused on. But over the last five years, it's really evolved into much more than that. So I think the oxalates play a role, but I think the oxalates are coming because of gut dysfunction primarily and metabolic dysfunction. So if you if you follow the oxalate, the the people who are like hardcore low oxalate people, like at the trying low oxalate group, which is where I found all the information about oxalates, and I got to know Monique Adinger very well, and we became very good friends, and I learned a lot from her. Um, they happen to believe that the oxalates is not most of it coming from the diet. I actually believe majority of the oxalate problems are metabolic, metabolic adjustment. Um, and I've been able to confirm that because majority of my patients have very high levels of oxalate stress. And so through this process of oxidative stress, the body starts to manufacture more oxalates endogenously. But then there's another piece of it, a lot of people also have a lot of mold exposure and gut dysfunction. So it's kind of like you're getting contribution from different things. It's not just like just your diet. The diet might play a small role. Then you have some coming from the gut dysfunction, and then you have a bunch coming from metabolic dysfunction. So that's primarily what I really honed my focus in until the last few years where I started working with Ruth Chris, and we started to really pay attention to this biofilm problem in the bladder. So there's a host of people who have genetic tendencies to produce biofilms. And we, including myself, we have mutations in Pi 1, Plasminogen Activator Inhibitor 1. It's basically an enzyme that breaks down fibrin. And fibrin is a component of blood clots, but they're also finding out that fibrin is a component of biofilms. And so what we're finding is a lot of us I see patients are predispositioned to form biofilms anywhere in the body. So it can be in your gut, it can be in the bladder, happens to be a very good place for biofilms to form because it's aqueous. And that's where the bacteria, because there's this biosis, there's translocation that's coming from the gut and it's finding its way into the bladder. Interestingly, I've done stool tests and I've done urine tests and they match.

unknown 8:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:58

So you have overgrowth of E. coli in the gut, it's also in the bladder. And they're forming biofilms. So my focus is still oxyls are still there, they're still important, but they're not the end-all be all. I think they're a contributor. I think these biofilms are really contributing to a majority of this problem.

SPEAKER_02 9:15

Yeah. Okay. No, that's that's fantastic information. So I think I love what you're saying because it's it's like when, you know, it's yes, it's it's a kidney condition, like it's urinary tract, you know, urinary tract, kidney type of issue, but it's a systemic issue, really is what it is, right? It's a full body thing when you've got you know issues in the gut and the metabolic dysfunction, dysregulation, that can all it's a downstream leads to you know the urinary tract, and then you get the bladder pain and things like that.

SPEAKER_01 9:40

Yeah, and then believe me, I've had it. I know it. And my symptoms just came back after I had a baby. Yeah, remember I told you this. I'm actually good now. I was able to shut that thing really quickly. Oh, that was scary because uh, you know, when the pain comes back, it comes back hard, and it's like it was there with the bacteria again. And so it's it I do believe majority of the patients are dealing with a bacterial problem. Yeah, yeah. Um, the problem is the urine cultures are not good enough to detect the bacteria. You have to do molecular testing. That's the problem.

SPEAKER_00 10:11

So there's a lot of philosophy.

SPEAKER_01 10:13

Yeah, they're still doing cultures. They're still doing cultures. It's very outdated for this population. Cultures are not adequate for detecting the bacteria. You have to go and do molecular testing. Yeah, kind of like this GI map. It's a G it's a GI map, it's the a GI map version of urine for urine.

SPEAKER_02 10:31

Okay, interesting. Interesting. Yeah. Okay, well, this is great information. All right, so let's talk about some of the approaches that you utilize, right, to help people, you know, get healthy. Because I think that's one of the keys, is you know, get healthy, then your new tract, everything's gonna be better. So, like for this specific subset, let's just keep it focused on like interstitial cystitis and bladder pain syndrome.

SPEAKER_01 10:52

Yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_02 10:52

What um what are kind of some of your top approaches?

SPEAKER_01 10:55

Well, first you have to run some labs because you have to know exactly what you're trying to reverse. It's like trying to fix a car and not looking inside the hood. Um, so I like to do HTMA testing. Um, I like to do some type of organic acid test, whether it's the oat or the nutrient eval or something else similar to look at the metabolic function. Um, I obviously have to do the urine testing and the molecular. So we use microgen DX for that urine and vaginal because they're connected. So you have to do vaginal and urine. Um, and then I also like to maybe add on like genetic testing. So whether it's the actual hypercoagulation test for the fibrin or and or the full nutrigenomic test that has all the methylation and all those SNPs. That tells us a lot of information and gives me a little bit more of a strategy on what these people need because you can't just put everyone on the same protocol as much as you wish you could. You can. Um, so really it really the HTMA is really critical. It's like the most important test out of all of them. It's it sounds silly because it's just hair and it's like such a simple test, but it's the most important test out of all of them that I have access to. So I do that, and with that, I can find out where their imbalances are and you know, what's going on, you know, kind of metabolically, but also, you know, can is there something that might be going on with their immune system? Is it, you know, is there like overactive thyroid, underactive thyroid? Is it a stress pattern? Is it inflammation pattern? And then I immediately get them started on obviously the diet, so low oxalate, low histamine diet, but then a nutritional supplement that I compound um through a company called Vicon and it's personalized to them. And then when they start that, they also start with a high dose of Zoocharge.

unknown 12:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:29

So they mix them together. And it's a tough sell sometimes with patients because they really struggle with that high dose.

SPEAKER_02 12:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:36

It's counterintuitive to them.

SPEAKER_02 12:38

Sure. Oh, you mean like like uh like mentally, they're struggling like mentally because they're sensitive and they think they need to take a low dose.

SPEAKER_01 12:44

Yeah, they think they only take a low dose. And I think they just they get like really afraid, so they'll do like half a scoop and they wonder why all like I have patients who are like, oh my god, when I take Zeno charge, everything's getting worse. I'm like, how much are you taking? They're like half a scoop. I'm like, told you to take four, you know, and so I think that's that's still I always send them to your website though. I always send them to your education site, like that is gold right there. All those videos you have is gold. Yeah, you know how many times I send people there.

SPEAKER_02 13:11

Yeah, it's I mean, it's scary. It is, it just goes against everything they've been trained, and it's just like, and I really encourage people like if you think that it's gonna be an absolute disaster, then don't take it until you're convinced it's gonna work. Yeah, because then you have like that placebo effect going against you, yeah, as well. So that's what you're on the education page. And so, but so for the patients that you know that you're seeing that take the half scoop, um, when they when they then go to four scoops, like would you say that generally works or is it kind of mixed, like 80% of the time? Like, what are you what are your findings?

SPEAKER_01 13:42

I don't hear them complaining anymore. So usually that means that something's changed. Um it I have literally needed people to take 12 scoops, which sounds crazy. But there have literally been people in my population, especially those that have a lot of mold. They've had to take. I literally had a woman just recently who was taking 12. Yeah, and she said that her butter symptoms went away and she would have been fine. So she would have went, would have been fine, but she went and did some other things on her own and her symptoms came back, but not related to Zero Charge at all. So um, but I was encouraging when I was told that she had gotten better on those 12 scoops. And so, you know, I feel like some people really do need those higher doses initially. And I like how you have that site uh on your site, you have the protocol on how to do it correctly. Like you're not gonna be on the high high dose forever. Yeah, you start high and you taper down because I think also people kind of get scared because of the cost.

SPEAKER_02 14:37

Yeah, oh yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 14:38

It's expensive to do it like that. So, but I tell them it's not forever, and I it's really hard because I think there it's just like you said, intuitively, normally low and slow, but this is not low and slow. Yeah, it's a different concept, and it makes sense the way you describe it.

SPEAKER_02 14:54

Yeah, I mean, at this point, you know, I when we when we first started talking, well, at first when we first when we when you probably first started using the Zeolite, this was my other brand before Zeo Charge even existed. We didn't even have the dosing paradox or the higher dose theory. Like that was just I was just kind of you know dabbling into it, and then you know, pretty quickly I realized we need higher doses. But at this point, I changed the name from the higher dose theory of Zeolite to the Zeolite dosing paradox. Because I mean, at this, there's so many people, it's been just tried so many times that there's definitely something to it. Like the higher doses are definitely, and I always say less likely to cause reactions. It doesn't mean they're not going to cause reactions, right? Because we just never know what's going to happen when you go in with a binder. Like anything can happen in each person, right? But it it's less likely, so probabilities are in our favor. That's that's what we're going for.

SPEAKER_01 15:38

So yeah, my own husband actually, when we were preparing for IVF, um, I had him on a pretty high dose. I think he was doing six scoops, and his liver enzymes really improved because his ALT was always a little high.

SPEAKER_00 15:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:50

You know, not like off the charts high, but higher than I was comfortable when we were to get get it down to normal. And actually his GFR improved as well.

SPEAKER_02 15:56

Yeah. Yeah, it's it's it's this the way I describe it is like most detox products inherently add stress to the system because they're designed to mobilize toxicity from somewhere, like kind of inactive toxicity in a tissue somewhere, and then it goes into the active processing center that adds stress. The more you take of it, the more stress you add. That's generally going to cause elevated liver enzymes, elevated everything else on the biomarkers. When you take zero charge, it's the opposite approach. You're binding. The more you bind, the less active toxicity there is, and the more stress is reduced. And then you should see an improvement in biomarkers. That's like the super simple version. And of course, there's a million things that can happen in between where you start binding, but then your body starts like dumping a bunch of toxics from tissue or dumping whatever it's dumping, and then that could actually stress out the system and could mess up the liver markers or whatever. So there's always a lot of caveats to these things, but it it is it is nice where, you know, I like these stories because there's still so many people, honestly, that are just like, there's no way I'm taking more than a scoop because you know it's gonna mess up my liver, it's gonna mess up my kidney, whatever it is. And it's just like it's really the opposite. But it it is, it's I I understand it. It's kind of a stumbling block for people, but um, you know, it's ironic.

SPEAKER_01 17:08

The same people who are worried about it messing up their liver and their kidney, but they're okay with taking three or four different pharmaceutical medications. Right.

SPEAKER_02 17:14

Yeah, that is yeah, that's that's true.

SPEAKER_01 17:17

I think that's gonna mess up your liver and kidneys.

SPEAKER_02 17:19

Yeah, generally, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:22

So anyway, so do you have any? Um, I think you had mentioned maybe it was maybe it was that uh client that was using the 12 scoops because you had texted me and said uh there was something like the oxalate levels or the markers were going down in the organic acid.

SPEAKER_01 17:34

Yeah, this person had high levels of oxalates um on all the organic acid tests before I ran one through uh US biotest. So I did an organic acid test after, but this was after she had done Zocharge for a little bit and she was on that 12 scoops, and it was very interesting that the oxalate levels went down. So I wasn't sure if I texted Jeff, I'm like, is it related? Is there a relationship? And so what your thoughts were.

SPEAKER_02 17:58

Yeah, well, first, at first I was like, it's probably a related, I didn't know exactly like what the mechanism was, but then later I was thinking about it and I was like, well, actually, because you know, there's there's the dietary oxalates, which you mentioned, which I think get most of the most of the focus when it comes to like low oxalate diets and things, but you mentioned like uh endogenously produced oxalates, and then you have you mentioned like ye might like yeast and fungus, those also will like those will produce oxalates as well, like in molds, right? Like molds and these various fungi will produce their oxal. Yeah, they're act they're uh oxalate-producing species, I think, right? So it's like it's not just the dietary. So because there a lot of times you have an anti um like microbial effect with the zoo charge, you know, and there's a bunch of mechanisms there, you could get a reduction of the production of those, you know, regenerative kind of oxidates that are coming in outside of the diet. So I think I think think that's probably uh what I mean it what you know once again, like it could be any number of things that we can speculate on it, but I think it's like that that's one thing that that kind of popped to my mind, like, oh maybe that's it. Because I was I was kind of stuck in the two. I was like, oh, dietary oxidates. It's like, well, because people are like, does it bind to oxalates? I'm like, I don't know, you know, maybe, but it's like binding to oxalates is one thing. If you can reduce the pr the generation of oxalates internally, that's gonna be much more effective for oxidasensitivity.

SPEAKER_00 19:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:19

Because it's like you have these things being produced all day long, it's like that's gonna be a bigger problem. It's kind of like if you have you know these microbial like dysbiosis and you have tons of you know LPS, like endotoxin, you have exotoxins being produced, all these waste products from from the fungus and whatever else, the bacteria, the parasites, it's like uh you can bind to those and help kind of mitigate some of the symptoms, calm the system down. But if those things are still in high number, they're gonna keep they're toxin-producing factories, they're gonna continue producing those toxic elements. If you can reduce the production of those toxins by reducing that microbial load, then it's like you need less binder. And you it's like that's the better approach. So I kind of see it the same way as oxalates. So you you did mention something. When you said endogenally produced oxalates, were you talking, or maybe you said metabolically produced, were you talking about like the microbial production, or were you talking about the body actually making Yeah, from glyoxalate?

SPEAKER_01 20:16

So you're actually your amino acids like glycine, and then you can actually have it produced endogenously when there's oxalate stress oxidative stress when there's not enough glutathione. Okay. So low glutathione is a big trigger. I did a short little YouTube video on this because I was researching and I was like, well, this is really interesting that when someone has low glutathione and they have oxidative stress, there is a higher production endogenously. And then interestingly enough, a lot of these same people with low glutathione are also B6 deficient.

SPEAKER_00 20:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:42

And B6 is a cofactor for transfulation in order for your amino acids to become glutathione. So if you have B6 deficiency, you might also have a sluggish conversion to glutathione. And then if you have a lot of oxidative stress, you might be using up your glutathione. So, like it kind of goes back to if you have mold, you're gonna have a lot of oxidative stress, so you will be using up your glutathione. So that high amount of oxidative stress can contribute to your body to make more oxalate. And I know because I saw this myself when I had COVID and I had very high levels of oxidative stress because of the virus, my oxalates went through the charts. I ended up passing a kidney stone when I had COVID. Because my body went like I take all this oxidative stone, and I probably wasn't taking enough glutathione to neutralize that. So I passed a kidney stone. So I think that piece of it is overlooked. And I think a lot of people are so hyper-focused on the diet, the diet, the diet, and they're not really understanding that there's still metabolic issues these people are carrying from many reasons. One could be because they have mycotoxins and mold and you know, fungus and lime or whatever you want to call it. And then I think also it's nutritional because if you're not getting enough of the amino acids to make the lutathione or the new vitamins to convert. And then the other piece of it I think people don't also understand is a lot of people have CBS mutations. You know, the enzyme CBS. Yeah. Cystivatis. Uh I forget what how to say it, but it's CBS. Um, I can look that up real quick. But anyway, that one is involved in transulferation. And that is, let me see, CBS enzyme is the long word. It's cyst the cystathionine beta synthase. That's the one. So it basically converts homocysteine into the amino acids. And a lot of people have variants of that that it can be upregulated. And if you have an upregulation, you may actually be producing a little bit more ammonia. And the ammonia A is toxic to the bladder lining. B, it can actually make the urine alkaline. And the alkalinity of the urine can attract bacteria, such as E. coli, enterococcus. So that part of it is also important because that also links that enzyme links into making glutathione. So a lot of times, if there is this shunting of that enzyme, there may also be a lot of them have low homocysteine. So if you check their homocysteine, their homocysteine is below six. And a lot of patients, their homocysteine is like two or three. Well, now you know that's probably due to this upregulation. There's not enough homocysteine to become glutathione. And you need that glutathione to mitigate the oxidative stress. So this is where the zeocharge becomes really important because zeocharge is an antioxidant. And you can explain that better than I can. That was where when we had that one webinar together last, what, two years ago? Two, three years ago, you and I met and we talked about the different benefits of zeo charge, and you particularly focused on oxidative stress and how zeocharge acts as an antioxidant.

SPEAKER_02 23:42

Yeah.

unknown 23:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:43

I mean it's how is that?

SPEAKER_01 23:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:45

It's unique because like a traditional antioxidant, we're talking about like an electron donor. So, like, you know, like a vitamin C or something, you know, it's donating an electron to uh scavenge uh the free radical, right? So it's like right, so it's just like a donation, and so it's so it neutralizes the free radical through like this donation process. Whereas with Zo charge, it's one, it it binds, it can trap the free radicals in the cage, so kind of absorbs the free radicals directly. So it's not donating anything, it's just trapping. But really, the more profound antioxidant effect is by reducing the production of the free radicals, right? So that would be through um one would be binding to the toxic elements that are causing free radical production. So things like the heavy metals and all these environmental toxicants that when they're elevated in the body, the they're producing free radicals. So binding to those reduces the production of free radicals, so it acts as kind of an antioxidant and that so it's more of a preventative. And then the other thing is when you have um these high levels of of the stressors on the body, toxic stressors, your your antioxidant system, your natural antioxidant defense is gonna be depleted. So you mentioned things like glutathione is gonna be low, uh superoxide dysmutase, your your vitamin, um, your antioxidant vitamins like vitamin C, they're all naturally gonna be lower because the body has to use them up so rapidly to combat this high level of oxidative stress. So that's where you know taking things like vitamin C, glutathione, etc., can be helpful, but a lot of times you can't keep up with you just almost like literally can't even take enough because the body is using it up so quickly. But if you can reduce the source of the of the free radical production, the body can retain onto its resources. So it's like a threefold thing. Like it increases antioxidant defense, directly binds to the free radicals, and also binds to the toxic elements that are resulting in free radical formation and oxidative stress.

SPEAKER_00 25:40

Interesting.

SPEAKER_02 25:40

So it's like it's kind of it's all like what we're saying, it's kind of like applying to everything. It's like with the oxalates. You've got you've got the external and then you've got the internally endogenously produced, but then you've got the microbial produced. So it's like two of the two sources of the oxalates are being produced from within your body. One source is coming from outside, and then it's like the same with with like heavy metal, like with toxic elements. You've got, you know, the stuff that's coming from without, but then you've got, you know, production of like ammonia. You've got like ammonia being produced in the body every day, you've got uh, you know, microbial waste products, all these things, LPS, etc., histamine. If your body's not clearing it, you get a buildup. So it's like when you're when your body's not working, and there's like a bottleneck and your body's just like kind of clogged up and not working properly, everything's gonna be off. Because it's like you're just gonna end up getting a buildup of all these things because your your mitochondria aren't for functioning properly. You just you just the whole metabolic system is not optimal. So it's like that's where you could potentially get a buildup of oxalates, and maybe that contributes to like the bladder pain. Maybe you get a buildup of ammonia and it can, you know, that goes to the crosses the blood, uh, the the bloodstream into the blood frame barrier, causes issues.

SPEAKER_01 26:48

Um well, a lot of them have a lot of brain solid, yeah. And major neurological symptoms as well, and they're very stress-reactive. And I do believe that ammonia plays a role because we see high levels of oretate on the organic acid test for many people. I I included the one I did just you know, four or four months ago, my oretate levels were high. So that right there is a marker of ammonia. But I think I remember you telling me, Latin, now that it rings a bell, that in the last webinar we had, that it does help reduce ammonia in the body, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_02 27:17

Oh, yeah, yeah. So what it has one of the things that binds to most effectively is ammonia.

SPEAKER_00 27:22

Oh.

SPEAKER_02 27:22

Yeah. So I and I think I've been saying for a while that I think potentially the potentially the biggest benefit of Zocharge is its ammonia binding effects. Because I think ammonia is such a big problem for people, because people's they're just systems are so overburdened with all this stuff, they're just sluggish. And then we're all producing ammonia all the time, right?

SPEAKER_01 27:43

Yeah, the urea cycle comes from protein, primarily, right?

SPEAKER_02 27:47

And then especially now, and people are eating more protein than ever.

SPEAKER_01 27:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:51

Even and then, and if the liver's not working properly, because the liver helps break down the ammonia, turn it to urea, then that you know moves on in the cycle. But if your liver is a little bit sluggish from maybe other environmental toxicants or whatever else, then you're having a reduced ability to break that ammonia down, and in in combination with the increased amount of ammonia from protein production, whatever, consumption or whatever, and it's like just just binding to ammonia and then adding in the microbial issues again, because you have you know things like candida and other microbes, one of their main waste products is going to be ammonia.

SPEAKER_01 28:23

Well, klebsiella, so there's urease-producing bacteria that we find in the gut. Big one is klebsiella. We see them in the bladder, they actually produce ammonia through the urease enzyme.

unknown 28:34

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 28:35

So that's a waste product.

SPEAKER_02 28:36

Yeah. So it's like that, so it's like there's all these sources of toxicity. That's why I always talk about like the internally produced and recycled and regenerative toxicity is a bigger issue than the external source toxicity. Because it's like just these things that are happening in our body, it's like this they're regenerate, they're new every day, these toxicities too. And then if our bodies aren't working, we're not clearing them. So like I say this a lot, and it no one has ever told me that it was helpful, but I continue to say it is that the the key to it, like the key to an effective detox is getting healthy.

SPEAKER_00 29:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:05

Because the healthier you are, the faster you detox because your body's natural detox system is working and everything is being cleared out more efficiently as it's coming in and as it's being produced. Right. So, kind of to your point about like interstitial systems. Yeah, yeah. So it's like it's so, and you know, you've got into a lot of the biochemistry and stuff, and it is quite complex, but it's like at the same time, if the body just works better, the bladder is going to be healthier and the liver's gonna be everything's gonna be healthier. So it kind of like where we started, where you were saying like a lot of people are focused on like you know, the bladder pain strength, like with the bladder, it's like all in the bladder, but it's really not all in the bladder, it's a full body system, and it's in the gut and it's all over, and then that causes the bladder issues later. So I don't know, it's interesting. I think it's interesting.

SPEAKER_01 29:55

That's really good about the ammonia. I'm glad you reminded me about that because that gives me even more of a reason to have people take more zoocharge because that is a major problem. In fact, Ruth talks about if you go on my TikTok, there's a whole series on ammonia and she talks about it, and it's a big deal because that ammonia is really altering the pH of the urine, which should be around six, no higher. And people are noticing that when they check their pH, they're like seven and eight, which you might think is good. It's not good in the urinary tract infection world because enterococcus and E. coli and many of these bacteria, they love pH number seven. That's like their happy place.

SPEAKER_02 30:31

And it, I mean, I would I would be I would venture to guess that when you have an elevated ammonia, it's probably providing a more optimal environment for some of the microbial species that produce oxalates to thrive. So then it's connected. So it's like you have excess ammonia, bam, next thing you know, you've got more of these microbial produced oxalates and then equals more bladder pain, right? So it's like it's all it's it's really all connected. So that's where, you know, I like when like you ask me like specific questions, like what do you think the mechanism is, mechanism is? Usually I'm like, I have no idea. But it's like, you know, it's kind of fun to talk it out because it's like maybe maybe we have some of it figured out, but there's so many things going on in the body that like it's hard to identify exactly what's going to be happening. But as long as it's doing something and we can measure that on tests and we know it's helping, it's like good, keep doing it.

SPEAKER_01 31:17

Like the liver and the kidneys are the main sources of the body's disposal of oxalate.

unknown 31:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:23

You know, and sulfur plays a big role in that as well. I don't know how zoocharge contributes to sulfur in any way. I don't know, but I know sulfur plays a big role in that. So if you have low sulfur or you have um your body obviously uses up sulfur when there's oxidative stress. There we go. Back to that again. Your body uses up the sulfur compounds, but a lot of that does happen in the liver. And so if the liver is not happy or unhealthy, you're going to have more problems with clearing oxalates out of your system.

SPEAKER_02 31:50

So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:51

Yeah.

unknown 31:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:52

Well, this is good. All right, let's talk about, let's see, we've got a few more minutes here. Anything else you want to just say about, and we'll, you know, get into kind of the what you have to offer and your programs and stuff. Is there anything else like kind of key talking points you usually like to talk about or you know, pieces of education we we've missed so far?

unknown 32:09

No.

SPEAKER_02 32:10

Kind of hit it.

SPEAKER_00 32:11

Yeah, I think we did.

SPEAKER_02 32:12

Yeah, yeah. Interesting with the biochemistry. So yeah, it's I didn't I didn't know that you taught uh biology and biochemistry as well.

SPEAKER_01 32:18

Yeah, yeah. Nutritional biochemistry. Um, and I teach um biology to undergrads and then the master's program for the nutritional biochemist. Yeah, no, the the biochemistry is really fascinating. And I and then when you run the nutrigenomics testing, you see these people and their SNPs and how common it is. Another one that's really common, which I find fascinating, is NRF2.

SPEAKER_02 32:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:39

Are you familiar with that one?

SPEAKER_02 32:40

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 32:43

Yeah, and keep one is you know, the upregulation is why people have a little bit of a sluggish NRF2. Yeah. Um, it kind of holds back the function of it. And I have a lot of patients who have that upregulation, and the ones who have a double mutation in the upregulation are actually the ones who have the highest levels of oxygen stress. So that's another one that I have found so interesting because there was actually a study at the Baylor College of Medicine, and they were looking at what it was the difference between the chronic UTI patients versus the people who just take an antibiotic and their UTI is gone and then they're fine. And why do some people become chronic and that NRF2 keep one was the reason they found that those people had the because that NRF2 is in the bladder, and it that's prime purpose is to help get rid of the infection from the bladder. So when the so usually when E. coli invades the bladder, there's a bit of oxidative stress, and that NRF2 mitigates the amount of oxidative stress that hits the bladder, so the bladder never gets damaged. It kind of calms everything down quickly and then the infection is gone. Whereas people who have the NRF2 problem or they have the down regulation of the keep one, they tend to have a little bit more oxidative stress in the bladder, and then the bladder gets damaged. And so then there's a little bit of that chronicity and the and then the bacteria becomes more chronic. And that was actually a study that was done within, like I said, the Baylor College of Medicine was looking at that because they were giving them um a it was a medication that was used for MS, um, dimethylfumerate, I think it was called. And that medication, I guess it helped with people who have this, you know, NRF2 thing, and they were seeing less UTIs amongst that population who was taking the um medication. So I thought that was kind of interesting because I'm like, wow, how many of these people probably don't even realize that they have a need for more um because the NRF2 also you know, I don't know if you knew this, but it also helps the glutathione enzyme. So it like but when you don't have NRF2 properly, all your glutathione enzymes are affected because it promotes the functionality of your glutathione enzyme. So once again, if you have genetic SNPs and you have a lot of them, you need help. Yeah, you need extra help. So I like Zeocharge because I feel like Zeo Charge gives you that extra help. It's kind of like you need help walking, you might need a cane to help you walk. I think Zeocharge is your cane. Yeah, helping you walk.

SPEAKER_02 35:03

Yeah, that's good. I like that. The cane.

SPEAKER_01 35:06

It's your cane, it's helping you walk.

SPEAKER_02 35:09

I like, I like because you you're like there's uh there's I like that Zocharge is very non-specific. Because it's like you're mentioning a lot of this biochemistry stuff. I don't understand most of it, but I know there's you know, like certain things like NRF2, you can take, you know, like the sulfur sulfur frame extracts, specific things to try to stimulate that pathway. It's like I don't understand all that. Zoocharge doesn't work directly on any pathway, but it only binds, and I think that it can help the function of a lot of pathways through like kind of an indirect mechanism where it binds, because maybe there's certain toxic elements that are causing sluggishness in certain you know, pathways. And it's just like more of an indirect thing, and then you can you can complement that with more of the targeted therapies, like when you're working with a practitioner like yourself, and then it's like you get the double whammy.

SPEAKER_01 35:56

But I think if you can reduce oxidative stress, you don't need to worry about everything, all these other pathways as much. Like if you have, let's say you have all your glutathione. Okay, this is me, by the way. I'll talk about myself. All your glutathione enzymes suck. You have the NRF2 keep one, you have NOS2 upregulation. You have, I mean, I have if you name it, I haven't. I have the CBS upregulation. Everything that could go wrong in my body genetically, I haven't. I have the pi one mutation for biofilms. I'm screwed. So because I'm genetically screwed, I need help. And I can't do it all. I can't sit there and constantly juggle, I gotta take sulfur graph, I gotta take glutathione, it's too much. And I don't even think it's gonna be effective. So I need to find an external way to lower my oxidative stress. How can I do that? Well, I felt like zeo charge was it because if it was lowering my toxic burden, because the toxins are everywhere, I can't avoid them. No, I mean, I don't live on a farm. I don't cook my, I don't grow my own food. I rely on the grocery store and I'm probably exposed to a lot of pesticides because of it. And so there's not much I can do. I live in a house that probably has building materials. I don't I can't like just uproot myself and put myself outside and live on a farm, you know, or live outdoors. So because I'm exposed to this stuff and I'm also genetically screwed, I need extra help. And I feel like that zeal charge, I take, I take about four to six scoops a day, by the way. That's what I do. And I feel like that helps me keep my toxic burden down so my engine, my body's engine can function better.

SPEAKER_02 37:25

Yeah. So perfect. Do you do you take and you've been taking Zool like because you were taking my other brand Zeo Boost for a couple years and I still have jars of that. Yeah, it's probably run out, I use it. Yeah, what six years? Would you say?

SPEAKER_01 37:38

Yeah, I probably remember I got pregnant, so I had to stop using it during pregnancy and nursing.

SPEAKER_02 37:41

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:42

But I did start putting a little bit in while I was nursing because I couldn't wait any longer. So I was just like, I know nursing, but oh well, I'm still gonna use it. So I did start using it while I was nursing, but I had to take a couple, you know, the whole pregnancy off. But yeah, I've been on Zocharge while I was on Zoo Zoo Boost, right? That's that's what it's called. I still have jars of it in my cabinet. Yeah, so if I run out of Zoo Charge and I'm waiting for my shipment, I need to pull out my Zoo.

SPEAKER_02 38:02

There you go.

SPEAKER_01 38:02

It doesn't go bad, it's thicker, it doesn't mix, it doesn't blend as well.

SPEAKER_02 38:07

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The Zoocharge is is it's nice. It's it's finer. It's definitely finer. It's it's smoother, yeah. That's a good word.

SPEAKER_01 38:13

Yeah. So we're making a shake, which is what we do. So the shake, you want to know the recipe? It's basically half a cup or about a cup of non-dairy milk. I put um about four scoops of Zocharge, my Vicon, I use ginger, I put curcumin, and then I use uh a prebiotic powder that I get from uh full script. And um I also use like a GI Revive, like amino whatever for the gut. And I mix it all together and drink that. And that's usually what I do right around dinner time because I don't, I can't remember to do it twice a day. So I just do it once a day. By the way, you said it was okay or it was good to do it all at once, right?

SPEAKER_02 38:46

I like it. Yeah, it kind of depends. So let's say you're gonna do four scoops a day. It would be better to do, I mean, when you're starting off at least, better to do four scoops all at once, supposed to two scoops and two scoops, because if two scoops isn't enough per dose, then it could cause a little bit of stress, like a detox reaction, and then you're causing detox reactions twice per day. But if you take four scoops, it's more of an efficient process, and then it's like only once per day if it causes a little stress, and then it's more likely not to cause stress at all. So I say start with the single dose, and then if you want to try to split it over time, uh totally fine. Some people do that. I can because in theory, it just seems like it would be better with a split dose. Like in theory, everyone's like, it would be better if you did two doses per day, but a lot of times people just still do better with just one dose. So I say, you know, I don't know. I I would still just do the one. Like I so right now, what I've been doing, because I did six scoops once per day for like four years. And then the last two years I've been doing uh well, probably the first year I maybe only did that two scoops, and then I went up to six scoops. But then the last two years, I've been doing six scoops twice per day. So it's like I didn't split it three and three, and this is mostly just it's probably overkill. Just one at one, it's just like I'm just gonna see, you know, kind of an experiment. One, just to like so I can tell people, like, I believe it's safe. Like I do tech all sorts of testing. It's like it's not causing any sort of like aluminum toxicity or any issues. My my lab markers actually get better, they've just been getting better and better and better.

SPEAKER_01 40:08

What are you testing to yeah? I'm just curious, what are you doing?

SPEAKER_02 40:11

Just various things. So, I mean, I do like a traditional, like, you know, just normal like blood work, like blood panel in the summers, and just looking at because I've traditionally had like very poor, like um like liver markers, cholesterol markers, like my cholesterol, like like la like even last summer, like my cholesterol was 102, my total cholesterol. Oh, that's so I mean it like that. That's what it was when I started testing like 15 years ago. So just like severe, like some very severe like liver type things, but then like just tested a couple months ago, it's up to 118. Still awful, like still awful, but it's better. But then my all my other liver enzymes were a little bit better. My vitamin D, which I know, you know, kind of a controversial biomarker, but uh just the traditional vitamin D uh on a lab test has never been above 30 in my entire life. Wow, no matter what I've done. That's that included the time I lived in Hawaii and laid out in the sun multiple hours a day. This last summer, 35. So it's like not incredible, but everything is getting better. So I'm just like, you know, and I feel better a little bit too, like or a lot better, like each each season I'm getting better. So there's progression in the biomarkers. I just did like I did an oats, like you know, organic acid from mosaic. Um, I did an amino acid profile from mosaic as well. Just did, you know, I do some like the various types of GI testing. So just kind of for fun. So I've used like Vitract the last couple of years. I'm gonna experiment with Tiny Health and some of the other companies, but just looking at um, you know, kind of different shifts in the gut as well, which is kind of interesting to see how things shift with different diets. Because I had transitioned from more of like a keto style diet for a couple of years to really the opposite, where now it's it's more just lots of different types of fiber and higher carbs. And I actually do much, I just I've been burning that much better, like more efficiently. And that's helped increase my diversity, microbial species as well. Um, just through, you know, and I'm doing like a lot of prebiotic fibers and like resistant starch and you know, all sorts of like thing, you know, like just things that are I that I wouldn't have eaten. I didn't eat at all for years. And it was a little bit of a, you know, uh during like that transitional period, it's a little bit tough because it's like you're off carbs for so long, you start eating them, you just feel awful. You know, and it's like the brain, everything, but then it's like after a while, it's like things start stabilizing and then they got state, you know, it's just better. So I just I like to monitor things. I don't really I used to test way more, I don't really test that much anymore.

SPEAKER_00 42:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:31

Because it's like, you know, it's like there's only so much data you can get after you've done so much testing. Yeah, but it's like I do like to do like the yearly, like just blood work, you know, panel. I do like the full thyroid panel, like you know, all the like the little more advanced like functional lab.

SPEAKER_01 42:44

What is improved with the Zards besides your your was your liver enzymes elevated?

SPEAKER_02 42:47

Yeah, yeah. So those are better. I've always had yeah, I always had like elevated like bilirubin and you know, like it's not like carry. Yeah, so just a lot, a lot of stuff. And it's just like I do feel like my liver has been clearing out, like getting a lot and a lot healthier. Cause I would try to do like a bitter herb, like you know, liver sauce from uh Quicksilver or something when I would try, you know, try that a number of years ago. And it's just like the amount of intense, you know, brain fog and detox reaction 30 minutes after that. It's just like, oh, there's probably something going on in the liver. Now I can pound that stuff down as much as I want, no reaction at all. Right. So just like stuff like that, like I don't get the reactions to different like like herbal cleanses, or like, you know, I don't get any sort of detox reactions if I take an antimicrobial herb or something like that, right? I don't get those reactions anymore. So it's just like I know just from that, and I am like I'm able to eat, like I had oatmeal today. It's like I I went years without eating oatmeal, and if I tried to eat oatmeal, it would be an absolute disaster. But it's like today I literally had oatmeal, just like you know, homemade like oatmeal with chia seeds, a little bit of maple syrup. I had two pieces of hero bread, which is like the resistant starch bread, and you know, just like tons of fiber. And it's just like no issue.

SPEAKER_01 44:00

What happened? You got bloated before?

SPEAKER_02 44:01

Not even really bloat, just like just like intense like disassociation almost, like brain fog and just like loopiness, like running into walls, like almost like I'm drunk or something. Yeah, just like. It's just interesting.

SPEAKER_01 44:13

So yeah, all that's feeding the yeast in your gut.

SPEAKER_02 44:16

Yeah, absolutely. And I think aldehyde. The amount of yeast that I I'm sure I had was so like probably just ridiculous because growing up, I mean, I was on antibiotics for a year, like growing up the first few years of my life. And then when I was in high school, I couldn't even drive for five or ten minutes in broad daylight without falling asleep behind the wheel. Like I literally like the aldehyde production was so great. Yeah. Like I would like feel I could I would be running into walls all the time. I could I would never be able to walk a straight line.

SPEAKER_00 44:43

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 44:44

Like I probably would have got it like a DWI if I would have got pulled over, literally because of the alcohol level without even drinking. Just because the yeast.

SPEAKER_01 44:51

So bread. I probably just had bread.

SPEAKER_02 44:55

I know, I know. It's and this was, you know, this was pre this was high school, and then I had, you know, the the kind of the um jab, you know, injury you say that kind of triggered that even because I already had that. And then I got the you know, the series of jabs when I was 18, and it just triggered everything, and it was way worse. Gardasil. Yeah, garticil, um, two others at the same time. I just like a high school physical. So there was that, and then it was like you know, chronic recurring viral infections over and over, and yeah, I got like streptimano right away, and then just kept getting all sorts of stuff. So, and then you know, I I did start going on an anti-candida diet, and like protocol was you know, it's kind of the first thing we all do when we get into health. Yeah, it's like kill the eat, like the candida is the only issue. So I did that, and I did have severe reactions, like you know, this was like I don't know, 13, 14 years ago.

SPEAKER_00 45:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:39

Remember ordering like, you know, this like chit and cell wall suppressor stuff from Thailand or something, and yeah, just like biofilm disruption and stuff. But yeah, interesting stuff. But um, I think yeah, that has definitely gotten under control, at least a lot more. And I think part of that is just slowly removing, you know, mercury and various toxic elements from my body that the the the fungus was probably allowed to be there to sequester those things and just killing it, like it just kept coming back and coming back and coming back. And I even did an you know, like multiple months of an antifungal protocol from a functional medicine doctor when I lived in Hawaii, like actual like prescription antifungals. And it's just like did not, it just came right back after like months of it. So I'm like, yeah, that's when I kind of stopped like killing everything so much because I'm like, there's something else. And then it's like I really feel like I wasn't even really detoxing much though, until I, you know, like probably six years ago. It's like, you know, with with the Zoo Charge, but in addition, I got the infected root canal treated tooth out. I moved into more of a healing environment where it's like I, you know, everything's hardwired, I don't have Wi-Fi. So it's just like a combination. My nervous system is way calmer, just everything is just I'm in a better position to detox. And then um, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:49

So, do you think you'll probably take Zo charge forever as long as you can?

SPEAKER_02 46:53

Hard to say. I mean, I I yeah, I have been taking it. I probably will. I mean, I'm not gonna keep taking 12 scoops because that's just it's just completely unnecessary, I have to say. But I'll probably finish off this year to make it, you know, two straight years, and then I'll probably go down um, you know, six scoops. Like, it like right now, it's just if I was paying full price for it, like a retail.

SPEAKER_01 47:13

I was just gonna say, what would you recommend?

SPEAKER_02 47:14

No, I I definitely, I definitely wouldn't. It's just that, you know, I'm I'm you know, I I I've got you know, I get I have access to it, so I'm you know that's why I'm kind of experimenting with the higher doses. But uh, if I was just buying it right now, I would at this point I'd probably be doing two scoops. Oh, yeah, because it's like yeah, two scoops once a day. Because like when I go off of it, I don't really notice like a huge difference. Where some people they feel awful when they go off of it still. For me, I still notice a little something because prior to the organic acids test I did a few weeks ago, I went off for three days in preparation for the test. And that was the first time I I'd been off in uh for like years. I'd been off for more than like a day. Um, but yeah, it's you know, I was okay. I was like a little bit more constipated.

SPEAKER_00 47:56

Oh.

SPEAKER_02 47:57

So I feel like when I go off, it's like there's a little bit, so it's still binding to something, some sort of toxic element or metabolic waste product or whatever that's causing a little bit of constipation, and then it helps, you know, alleviate that. But uh overall, it's not like for me at this point, it's not like a life-changing thing where it's like I have to be on it to survive, right? Where you know, some people it's more like they're using it for symptoms management. I'm just using it. I do feel like I'm just continuing and I do the HTMAs, like pretty much every haircut. I forgot last week in my haircut, but usually I I do the HTMAs, I do the illegal scan. They see, you know, there's still the cyclical effect, cyclical pattern where the metals are kind of pumping up and down. So that's good. It's like I'm still there's still metals in there. It's like, you know, it takes a long time to get this stuff out, plus the current exposure. So I'm like, yeah, I'm just gonna keep taking it, you know, for I'll probably just keep taking it. Yeah, but just yeah, at a reduced dose. Uh, and as I continue to get healthier to get healthier, I definitely won't need as much. And my butt because my body's natural detox is gonna keep getting better.

SPEAKER_01 48:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:53

So then I don't need as much support, right? Type of thing.

SPEAKER_01 48:56

So yeah, I I'm wondering about myself too, since I have all these genetic SNPs. I don't know. I mean, I I um I definitely know that when I was um not on it while I was nursing, I can notice my histamine issues coming back uh way like gradually. But it was like a little heap, a little bit here, a little bit there. I'm like, oh a little itchy there. Oh my gosh, got you know, I got the sinus, I got you know the bladder. Um, and I do think it does help calm down the histamine.

SPEAKER_02 49:23

Yeah. Yeah, it but so and this is we'll touch on this really quickly because a lot of people buy it for specifically for histamine, like people with MCAS or just histamine intolerance, you know, or or mold toxicity that you know has elevated histamine, and it does bind to histamine. So it has been shown to do that, but that doesn't mean it's gonna lower the histamine load in your body because what is the net effect? Let's say, because even if it like if you take a microdose, like a tiny bit of it, and this is a lot of times what happens with like the liquid zeolites or the nanos, like yes, it goes and it binds to a little bit of histamine, but then the tiny dose stressed out your system. And then if you there's an immune reaction from the detox reaction, you get an increased production of histamine and mast cells. So it's like you might actually get an increased like the net effect might be an addition of histamine when you take it. That's why the dosing is really critical, especially for people with like histamine issues, because you want, yes, to bind to as much histamine as possible, but also to have an efficient binding process so you don't get more internal, you know, more production of histamine during the during the process. So what exactly so what exactly is the mechanism then if it's not uh well it is it is directly binding, but it's but it's oh I see what you're saying. But yeah, so direct binding, but then also I mean binding to things that are stressing out the system resulting in activation of the mast cells and histamine production.

unknown 50:45

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_02 50:45

So yeah, so like like the mold, yeah, like the mold. So it's it's kind of like it's kind of like the oxy that same thing. It's like if you can bind or the the med the you can just bind to these bind to these things that are producing various yeah, bind to the source, you don't get the external production. So that's that's always primary binding to the toxic element itself, I think is like a secondary in terms of medvelopment.

SPEAKER_01 51:06

So primarily binding to the things causing you to have high histamine, secondarily binding to histamine.

SPEAKER_02 51:11

Yeah, I think so.

SPEAKER_01 51:12

Yeah, maybe it sounds like you're gonna need a higher dose for that effect.

SPEAKER_02 51:15

I'm just completely guessing on that.

SPEAKER_01 51:16

Maybe the main mechanism is binding to oh that that patient who I told you had the 12 spoops, she did have mold. So I'm wondering if that's why she felt so much better while she was doing it. Because it was probably binding to the mycotoxins that might have been triggering the histamine.

SPEAKER_02 51:29

Yeah, and like you said, all of that's all of that's contributing to oxidative stress, all of those, you know, the toxin release, so it's not reduced, yeah, it's just so many things. That's why it's so tricky when it's down.

SPEAKER_01 51:40

Because her results were like pretty quick look, pretty quick. I mean, she's actually noticed that within like a week.

SPEAKER_02 51:45

Yeah, yeah. It's I mean, if you're if you're just if your body can't deal with all that internal stress, like that production of all the stuff happening and the oxidative stress, and you're you're kind of like at a tipping point and you're getting detox reactions because you can get detox reactions every day without even detoxing, like without supplements, because your body just can't handle it, right?

SPEAKER_01 52:02

Your daily Oh, yeah, that was me. I was like permanently had brain fog.

SPEAKER_02 52:06

So if you have those symptoms and then all of a sudden you bind to stuff and you like stop getting those reactions, like that can calm things down like pretty much immediately. Usually not you know, like three, four days.

SPEAKER_01 52:16

Like some people about a week, I think that yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:19

Yeah, so a lot of people notice that means some people, it just depends where the toxicity is because a lot of people like don't feel anything from CO charge for three months. So if like if your toxic elements are deeply embedded in your nervous system and a tissue, like you're not really gonna get symptoms relief generally for a number of months because that's like a slow removal process. Whereas like if you have the like these things that are actively stressing out your system and you're getting reactions from every day, you might get symptoms relief right away because you're just binding that stuff. So it's like that's binding versus detox. Like some of the nervous system stuff is more like benefits from detox, which is longer term, like neurological symptoms, yeah, improvement. Whereas like just binding to things that are stressing out your system, you can get results right away. And most people confuse them because people are like, oh, my brain feels better on day four, so it must be going into my brain and detoxing my brain. It's like probably not. It's probably because it's binding to something that was causing an inflammatory reaction, which was resulting in brain fog, right? Really, it's more that's more likely than like it's it's not going into your brain. So we know that's not it. But people think that's what's happening because their brain feels better, but it's all connected.

SPEAKER_01 53:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:28

And maybe it's the ammonia, maybe it was just binding to the ammonia. Well, that ammonia is not going to the brain.

SPEAKER_01 53:32

I totally forgot that we had to have that conversation. I'm like, okay, this is more of a reason why we need to make sure that people are taking the right dose.

unknown 53:39

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:40

Yeah.

unknown 53:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:41

Well, this was great. All right. So I got a little bit of a rant there about my my own my own self, but that was really interesting. So, so all right, let's talk about kind of your your your you you work with uh clients online, right? So you have like online programs. Tell us a little bit about what you offer, uh, education, where they find you, social media, website, all that stuff.

SPEAKER_01 54:00

So my my social media is Dr. Manny DCN, TikTok, Instagram, and YouTube. I um primarily work with people one-on-one. Um, we have a coaching program. It's about six months long. It consists of testing all the things we talked about earlier and trying to find out what's triggering your symptoms, uh primarily bladder pain, but also fertility as well. And um, but the coaching piece is really important because people need guidance. They don't need somebody to give them a protocol and see you in three months. It's like ongoing communication back and forth. So for six months, they have access to me pretty much as long as I'm awake and I'm not sleeping. And I'm pretty responsive, pretty, I'm I'm always checking, you know, making sure, you know, people are are not needing my help. So I'm very available from that perspective. Um, and then I also do have um a course. So I do teach and I do um sell an Icy Healer course, and I also have a fertility course. So I have two courses. I'm still working on my website to, you know, update the fertility course, but it's it's done, ready to go. It people can buy it. It's just not a way to order it off the website, but it's getting, I'm getting there. Um, Icy Healer course is available on my website. It's $199 and it pretty much. Um, I've just recently revised it and changed my modules because they used to be one hour and now they're five minutes. Yep. Five minute five to seven minute lectures now. Because people don't have time. So I'm trying to accommodate with people's time. So yeah, there's still eight modules. It goes through all the different causes, infections, um, food intolerances, gut dysfunction, inflammation. It has all those same categories, but I've just trimmed everything down to five to seven minute lectures videos. Um, and for people who want to do the DIY approach, that's another option for them. So and that's kind of where I'm at. I'm not, I don't do group coaching, I don't have time for that. Um, one-on-one or DIY.

unknown 55:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:46

And is so is and are you are you just working with women or are you working with men as well?

SPEAKER_01 55:52

Well, you're working with yeah, men come out come out and men get IC too.

SPEAKER_02 55:56

Yeah, okay. So women, men, and then beyond IC, you're if someone still wants to like, you know, run those labs you mentioned, you can still run those. Are you just focused on the bladder health? But if they don't have bladder issues, from all over the place.

SPEAKER_01 56:08

I had a cancer coach send me a bunch of clients to do HTMAs on his clients, and I did that for a few years. He just was sending them all to me and I was running all the HTMAs on them. I have some fertility people that come to me. No, I mean, I just the other day I had a mom whose was son was injured by the jab, and she wanted to run some metabolic tests to see what happened. Um, what happened to him from that? So I can do that too. Um, I do I've done children. I mean, it's not just adults. Um, interesting about men and I see, real quick though, their situation is a little bit more obviously different because they don't have a vagina. A lot of theirs is coming from the prostate. So they would have to do a urine and prostate or a semen test.

unknown 56:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 56:48

Yeah, there's actually something known as retroactive ejaculation. Sorry, retrograde ejaculation. Retrograde. Retrograde, sorry. Retrograde ejaculation. Yeah. So apparently, if someone has a man, which is very common, people don't realize that men have infections in their prostate.

SPEAKER_00 57:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:04

Because they're silent. They're usually asymptomatic. And there's usually this when they have like bacteria, they don't usually know. But what happens when there's inflammation in the body, when they ejaculate, sometimes the sem the semen, which is supposed to come out of their ear, you know, obviously their urethra during intercourse, some of it goes up into the neck of the bladder and goes into the bladder. And so if there's bacteria there, some of it goes backwards into the bladder and then they infect themselves that way. So interesting. Different root, you know, different root cause as far as you know the way it happens, but I think all of it still boils down to the foundations, uh, inflammation, oxidative stress, dysbiosis. I think foundationally everyone's pretty much the same.

SPEAKER_02 57:45

Perfect. All right. Yeah. Well, that's the great information. Yeah, the people are always looking for um, you know, ways to get tested without, you know, that these tests, a lot of times they're conventional doctors, or sometimes they're in their, you know, they're this is good to have access to these tests. So you can work with the code.

SPEAKER_01 58:00

Well, they also have a nurse practitioner who works with me, and she does prescribe for the patients who have a hard time, because I don't prescribe, um, but she prescribes for patients who have a hard time getting their prescriber or their prescribing doctor to accept the test results and accept the treatment diagnosis, uh, sorry, the treatment protocols, because um, I do consult with Ruth Chris once in a while when I need to get back uh information on different antibiotics. So sometimes antibiotics are necessary. And so when there's an antibiotic required, um Ruth helps guide me a little bit on what they need. And then um, if their doctors are not willing to prescribe, my nurse practitioner does.

SPEAKER_02 58:35

So okay, that's good. All right, lots of good stuff. So I'll get that stuff in the show notes that you mentioned, the links and all that, so people can check that out. So everyone check that out in the show notes. But yeah, Dr. Manu, this was fantastic. Really good, really good episode, lots of interesting information. I learned a lot myself, so at a good time, always good to see you.

SPEAKER_01 58:51

You too.

SPEAKER_02 58:51

And I appreciate everything that you do, making the world a healthier and happier place.

SPEAKER_01 58:55

And same with you. Keep on making more products for us.

SPEAKER_02 58:58

Absolutely. All right, we'll talk to you next time.

SPEAKER_01 59:00

Okay, bye.